Struggling with SPH

[NuderThanNude]

10 minutes ago, Pumpkin Eater said:

Once when I first started dating, I asked a college girl why she wouldn't let me touch her breasts in spite of the fact we made out hot and heavy. 

While French kissing, she had her leg purposely against my hard dick through my clothes and my leg and hand was often on her pussy through her clothes.   The French kissing shocked me, but I pretended it didn't.

She said something like, "I know we'd go all the way if I let you play with my breasts and we're not committed to each other."   

This was a long time ago:  about 1967.  Several young women I dated were similar back then.

With one girl I dated... the first two dates all we did was kiss. On the 3rd date I tried to advance things further into sex and she said no. The next 2 dated she also said no when I tried to get my hand into her panties or touch her small breasts. Finally on the 6th date she finally let me go all the way. When we talked about it later and I asked why she wouldn't have sex with me sooner she said " I was afraid that once you got what you wanted I wouldn't see you again".

[The Jester]

7 minutes ago, NuderThanNude said:

 " I was afraid that once you got what you wanted I wouldn't see you again".

Did she😉?

[NuderThanNude]

14 minutes ago, The Jester said:

Did she😉?

I'm not sure what you're asking.  We went all the way (sex wise) on that 6th date and I kept seeing her after that. Well I did, except for several weeks several months later as I met another girl. I wanted as much experience as I could get before I got really serious with one girl. It didn't take long before I realized this new girl and I weren't meant for each other and I returned to the previous girl (who was afraid I'd leave her after having sex). She took me back without asking a single question of where I had been. On my own I told her where I had been and why. I ended up marrying her and have been with her nearly 5 decades.

Edited August 16 by NuderThanNude

[The Jester]

2 hours ago, The Jester said:

Did she😉?

 

3 hours ago, NuderThanNude said:

 see you again".

 

2 hours ago, NuderThanNude said:

I ended up marrying her and have been with her nearly 5 decades.

That's a yes then😄

[NuderThanNude]

18 minutes ago, The Jester said:

That's a yes then😄

Yes, and we still have 'date night' once a week over all of those years.

I'm assuming her fear (and experiences) about not seeing me again after sex had been because she is very conservative sexually and the guys she was with may have only been interested in (wilder) sex.

Even though she is not very adventurous sexually she is a great person... nevertheless my sex with her was always fantastic. Our emotional attachment to one another surely had a lot to do with that.

 

[bc_cpl]

45 minutes ago, NuderThanNude said:

I'm assuming her fear (and experiences) about not seeing me again after sex had been because she is very conservative sexually and the guys she was with may have only been interested in (wilder) sex.

Could it have been that her other sexual relationships were a one night stand / one and done type thing, thus her not wanting to get into it too quickly with you?

[NuderThanNude]

47 minutes ago, bc_cpl said:

Could it have been that her other sexual relationships were a one night stand / one and done type thing, thus her not wanting to get into it too quickly with you?

Exactly. That's what I'm thinking.

[JasonBeam]

9 hours ago, bc_cpl said:

Could it have been that her other sexual relationships were a one night stand / one and done type thing, thus her not wanting to get into it too quickly with you?

 

8 hours ago, NuderThanNude said:

Exactly. That's what I'm thinking.

 

Hence the phrase . . . once bitten twice shy

[NuderThanNude]

33 minutes ago, JasonBeam said:

 

 

Hence the phrase . . . once bitten twice shy

In my world it's "Twice bitten - Always shy"

I like when I'm out running and someone's dog comes running at me and the owner yells "he doesn't bite" I yell back "until he does"... "and then you have a law suit" !

[I Didnt Grow Much]

This took me a while to finish, and I gave up a few times, so there has been some delay from the posts of the first page and a half. Nevertheless, I think it remains something worth writing, as well as reading.

I didn’t want to have to do this, and what I’m about to say is extremely embarrassing for me, but I am evidently not doing an acceptable job of explaining the need for carefulness and the type of subtlety which might require someone posting about a delicate topic on this site, or elsewhere, to re-read what they are about to post a few times before it is posted. Certainly, for young people, their minds do not become fully adult until their mid-twenties, but more importantly, lacking life experience making adult decisions, and sometimes making adult decisions under the influence of alcohol or drugs, legal or otherwise, leaves their judgment, on occasion, lacking. 

Some members, in what I am sure for most of you is a sincere attempt to help, are posting with the best intentions, yet some of what is being said could be doing some damage. Trying my best to ask for more subtlety than I am finding on here, and as uncomfortable as this is for me, I’m going to share what happened in my mind after I was attacked, to give all of you a glimpse into the way a mind may spiral from such an incident, especially the not yet fully formed mind of a young person.

Consider then that the minds and emotions of those who have been sexually molested are, at least mildly, if not significantly, changed in ways very few may observe, but cannot understand, and these changes are never for the better. Asked by my college psychologist to describe my thoughts and feelings about where I was in the healing process, I told him there was a friend of mine in youth group who was born unable to walk and would spend his life in a wheelchair. Everyone could see there was something wrong, and offered to help in many ways. He experienced many situations where he could not fully participate, and said privately he felt left out, but it was no one’s fault. I told my counselor I felt like that, just on the inside, where no one could see. There were things I often could not reach, my emotions or the emotions of others, and many times where my mind would return to that shower floor and I would zone out and/or break down emotionally, and if asked, could only say I was fine but needed a minute. If pressed, I would simply say a grandparent I was close to was sick.  

For boys/young men, being sexually molested, violently or otherwise, once or long term, causes an injury that, while you can be trained to live with it, cannot be healed. These injuries effect every part of life because they live in your thoughts and emotions. So, I’m going to candidly put the following out there in the hope I can make some members understand, before possibly inflicting further, albeit unintended, psychological pain/damage to other members, and possibly guests. These are my experiences, and mine alone. What you read may or may not happen at the pace mine did, but the questions raised do come, and for many never fade away. Those of us who grindingly progress toward acceptance often discover a certain level of it, and on the outside function normally.

Psychological/Psychiatric help begins with all the promise of being life-changing; nevertheless, if even half of that promise ever reached fruition, we would not be seeing the continued damage so apparent in people’s lives now spread across all media, not to mention that which we cannot see behind the scenes. I am definitely not alone in believing much of this may be a result of untrained individuals attempting to help too much. 
 
Instead of solely directing someone who needs help to find educated and experienced professionals, caring and sincere family members and friends often want to help by sharing the type of advice which could be of help for a simple problem, but for a complex mental problem, it may steer the person in need away from professional help, or worse, toward a dangerous outcome. Sometimes a little, and often too much, pop psychology and philosophy is tried. A bit from Dr. Phil here, something read in People magazine there, a memory from a sermon, added to a memory from Psych 101,  possibly thrown in with a little bumper sticker advice, and the outcome may give those who need professional help enough hope they begin to believe they may not need to go through professional psychotherapy, or need medication, both of which are very scary for so many, especially boys and men.
 
The following example is from the after effects of the sexual attack perpetrated on me in a seventh grade PE shower, where there was, quite accidentally, no adult supervision, and too many students who could have stepped in preferring to laugh rather than stand up for me. Some previously unshared but necessary background first. I had been a hyper-inquisitive boy, I have been told, from the time I initially asked my first question. In elementary school, if a teacher asked, “Does anyone have any questions?,” I had ten and tried to ask all of them, believing that’s what the teacher meant. I wanted to know everything, and spent time in the back of my mind thinking of all the permutations my concrete thinking could muster. I cannot remember it ever impeding my ability to have fun and laugh along with everyone else, in fact, prior to the attack, I was often referred to as a happy-go-lucky kid. My happy-go-lucky side ended on the first Monday of the second week of September, two months after my twelfth birthday. That insatiable inquisitiveness, which served me so well in learning, became a nightmare for me on that Monday. 
 
Following the attack, I was diagnosed with depression and mild catatonia, which disrupts how your brain works. Catatonia is not a common side effect of general sexual molestation, but more often happens with violent incidents, molestation or not. Catatonia effects how someone processes and reacts to what's going on around them. Those with the issue often don't react at all of the activity around them. They may not seem to recognize individuals, or if they do, they may have no response. Questions or verbal commands may go completely unanswered. Unusual reactions may occur. Outbound communication is commonly limited and sometimes nonexistent, and abnormal behavior is common and can possibly be harmful or life-threatening. 
 
Fortunately, a few days later, and increasingly after that, I would shake my head to certain inquiries, and ignore others. I was mildly functional, and would eat a bit, help with getting dressed, getting in and out of the car, etc. Dean, who was one of my two best friends, was allowed to miss school for two weeks and stay with me 24 hours a day. Following that, he attended school and spent the rest of his free time with me for two and a half more months. He and my parents read to me, talked to me, held me, hugged me, and watched my four favorite TV shows with me. Dean slept in the bed next to me, like on every sleepover, and helped me get ready in the morning, ate with me, and we almost literally did everything together. My mom babysat/watched him from birth, he had been with me almost every day since, and the psychologist suggested to my parents this was the best way to proceed. As I responded more, he, my parents, and my psychologist, dragged me along toward healing. Later, hugging me and crying, Dean said he just wanted me to come back and be his best friend again. With the addition of tears often silently running down my face, occasionally sobbing or bawling, this was my life for most of the first three months after being molested, as I slowly improved and returned back to school early December. The following describes how an attack lasting no more than two to three minutes forced my mind to torture me, not just for three months, but for the rest of my life. 
 
What happened immediately after the attack I have almost no memory of, but learned over time. Slowly, day by day, I became more and more aware of what was going on, like something happening in the background. What was happening, in at least my conscious mind, was mostly a series of questions and statements that would keep repeating and expanding. I had no recollection of not finding answers when I had asked in the past, so I assume I thought I would find the answers to these, with almost no satisfaction, or I wouldn’t still be running through many of them today, only now more as background to day-to-day life.

These are the questions and statements that filled my mind every day, even after I was coming back to what appeared normal, and before my penis had grown or I thought I might be small. I wrote down, straight from memory, almost twice as many questions as I mention here, but pared them down for readability. They are meant to be a mix of past and present tense because that jumble represents what goes on in my mind as they cycle through:

Why did this happen to me?

Why was I alone? 

Why didn’t I stay home?

What did I do to them?

I couldn’t stop crying.

I’m a baby like they said.

Why can’t I stop crying now?

Why did they grab my balls?

It hurts so much.

Please STOP!

Is this my fault? 

Did I do something to them?

Why couldn't I avoid it?

Why were they so mean?

There’s nothing good about me. 

That’s why they did it. 

Wait, I wasn’t alone.

The floor is so cold.

Why was everyone laughing?

Was there something I missed?

Why am I so weak?

I can’t figure this out, maybe I’m not smart. 

Why did they hurt me so much?

Why were they so violent?

This is wrong.

It’s unfair.

Why me?

Why was I by myself? 

Where are my best friends?

Why can’t I be strong and fast like them?

Where was coach?

Where were they when this happened?

Why is my heart beating so fast?

Why can’t I stop crying now?

Why did they touch my penis?

They said I’m small.

Am I?

I’m screaming and my throat hurts.

I should stop because it’s not helping.

Why did my penis have to get hard?

Everyone keeps laughing.

Why won’t they do anything?

I guess I'm not worth saving.

They keep pulling on my penis.

It hurts.

They said they were helping me grow.

They were just hurting me.

Why did God let this happen?

Did he make it happen?

He doesn't do that.

Wait, what about Job?

I'm worthless. 

I just want to forget. 

I just want to die.

Please, God, kill me.

Or give me the strength to kill myself.

Over the next two years, as I understood what being gay meant, and realized I was smaller than other guys, more questions intruded, and with them many of the old ones. No one was able to sense my inner turmoil and torture, other than family and my two best friends, but out of public sight didn’t mean it was out of my mind. I continued thinking of suicide as feelings of worthless crept in daily, but Rick and Dean, my two best friends, helped me keep them at bay as I spent the overwhelming majority of time with them, and when we ventured off to separate colleges, regular phone calls twice a week or so. Yet the thoughts would find ways to intrude during quiet times, and both thoughts, emotions, past abuse in my dreams. 

My college roommate was great at keeping me busy, rather than suffering the effect of best friend withdrawal, which he also suffered from leaving a girlfriend behind. My psychologist was quite adept at helping me see I could function, thrive as an adult, and pursue my dream of having a family, not to mention sharing new ideas on calming my overactive mind when these issues resurfaced. My experiences were/are pivotal in counseling young guys through conflict resolution, teaching confidence and discipline, and better mental health. It also came in handy raising two boys.

Now, approximately 50 years out from the attack, my mind is calm, and has been for decades, except for certain triggering incidents. A week or so ago there was a national story so like my own experience my body tensed up, my Apple Watch told me my heartbeat increased rapidly, negative thoughts crept back in, and I thought I was going to throw up. I can say reading this topic had a similar effect, but the experience was worth it if it helps everyone on this site who, wanting to offer a helpful opinion, would think very carefully before responding to such raw thoughts and feelings as the ones which were the impetus for this topic, as well as other similar ones.

[The Jester]

I'm sorry to hear again how much these experiences effected you @I Didnt Grow Much. I hope you got my pm. I notice you haven't been that active here thecladt few days.

Again, as someone who suffers from PTSD (in fact I spoke to my doctor only today). I can relate to a number of these issues.

I was already thinking, based upon the orignal posters content and the exchange after that, how much of the blame for these incidents lies with those in authority, which ties in to an extent with my experiences. You're right that experiences of violence, abuse and powerlessness open out into a questioning of all authority, society and self. Sometimes this appears as a kind of reverie, or dream, which I suppose, has its logical conclusion in the catertonia you mention.

For me personally, as the trauma involved physical death (not mine obviously), the 'dream' you describe (catertonia, which is the end state of types of schizophrenia ), is the dream of the life of the other person. Another interesting aspect is the way in which you mention suicidal ideation,  r.e. the idea many men in particular have about suicide as  bravery, linked to male depression/violence, as well as a military or warrior ethos, Samurai etc.

Although I know you are a Christian, not a Buddhist, the Tibetan book of the dead describes these states/experiences thus:

 

When I roam alone, seperated from loved ones,

And myriad images of emptiness arise,

May the Buddhas quickly release the power of their compassion,

And may the fear of the awesome and terrifying intermediate state be annulled. 

 

When I experience suffering,as the result of negative past actions*,

May the meditation deity dispel all such misery,

And the natural sound of reallity reverberates like a thousand peals of thunder.

 

When I am driven by past actions, unanbe to find refuge,"

May the great compassionate one protect me,

And when I experience the suffering of habitual tendencies and past actions,

May inner bliss and radience naturally  arise.

 

*Like Job in biblical terms.

 

 

 

 

 

[Appreciater]

....

It always infuriates me when I hear of instances of bullying. ... Then to think of when it is taken even farther into sheer violent sadism....🤬

 

 

Edited August 17 by Appreciater

[NuderThanNude]

I Didnt Grow Much - I know you weren't looking for comments of advice and it appears you just needed to get that off your chest so others can understand you better - and I get that. Nevertheless, I cannot help but think about what you went through and try to relate it to my own experiences. How did what happened to you differ from what happened to me as a child and how did it affected me throughout my life. I was abused and bullied and had physical harm inflicted one almost daily when I went to school (both grade school and high school). Part of the reason for that was my parents got me into school a year earlier than I should have so everyone was a year older than me. When you are a child, one year makes a big difference in size and strength and being able to defend oneself. Therefore I was always the target. I got punched, thrown to the ground, kicked and mad fun of and laughed at by the attackers and the other kids watching. I dreaded going to school each morning. That didn't end until I went away to college which is a big part of the reason I would join a frat house. 

I view a lot of what happened as being extremely traumatic to me. I was in a no win situation even at home. If I came home bruised and bloody I got yelled at for not defending myself. However if I fought back and defended myself I got yelled at for fighting.

I still remember those days very clearly in my mind but what I think about when I read your post is how what happened to me affected me and my life differently than what your trauma did to you. I cannot say that I have ever had anything that resembles PTSD. I viewed what happened to me as a learning experience which showed me the reality of the world and of certain people. I learned there were a lot of bad people in the world and I needed to watch my back and that I couldn't count on anyone (but myself) to help me.

I believe you mentioned that you were very inquisitive and questioned everything and so did I. So where did out our paths separate and why. I wasn't a very social person although I did have friends I hung around with. But I wasn't naive and I could see that they were "friends in need". I had a lot of hobbies and loved learning things so I was able to fix things so they knew me in those situations where they needed something fixed but when it came time to go somewhere to have fun I was the last person they called. Maybe the difference between you and I was that I understood what a lot of people were like and never felt there was anything wrong with me as I had a high level of self confidence and self esteem from my accomplishments in my hobbies. I wasn't inferior but it was them who were bad people. I just dealt with people, always watching my back, as long as the relationship was equally beneficial. A few of those people became life long friends.

I don't dwell on negatives and just use them as learning experiences. The trauma I experienced when bullied was no different than any other bad thing that happened to me in life such as auto accidents or severe injuries I sustained while enjoying outdoor activities.

I know it's too late to change how you thought and reacted when you were younger but it is never to late to stop dwelling on the negative things that happened to you. Whether you realize it or not they were valuable learning experiences for you. Make use of them that way.

[NuderThanNude]

One thing to remember is that we are all born with a will to live and to do what ever it takes to accomplish that. Therefore we are all naturally 'selfish' and have 'self interest' at the root of everything we do.

However, because of our mind and reasoning ability we understand that it is only through our efforts that we can achieve true happiness, We also realize that we can get pleasure in helping someone else. Especially someone we have feelings for. But never forget that it is that pleasure that satisfies our selfishness. We also hope that a person (or another) might return that help when we might need it. We then realize that we can combine our efforts as individuals and achieve greater results but that we will always be just a group of individuals. The group can never take precedence over any individual or force the individual to sacrifice themself for the group.

Nevertheless we have to realize that not all people are rational and instead of being 'rationally selfish' are 'greedy' and want to live their life by the efforts of everyone else or to feel better about themself by putting others down. It is our responsibility to not let that happen nor let their actions affect us negatively.

[Appreciater]

...

Me calling the frats and sorts no better than Mafia organizations has been proven this week.   ...   Two frat brothers running cocaine business from the frat house, using pledges to package the coke.  🙄

Both pledging rituals and hazing rituals should have been completely banned years ago just as slavery was. 

If frat and sort houses are even to be allowed, they should be required to abide under surprise inspections randomly multiple times during the year at all hours of day and night.

[NuderThanNude]

30 minutes ago, Appreciater said:

... If frat and sort houses are even to be allowed, they should be required to abide under surprise inspections randomly multiple times during the year at all hours of day and night.

I can think of better uses of my tax money. I say... if people want to join and stay in them they deserve what they get. As for packaging the coke... They made me do it isn't an excuse.

[Appreciater]

4 minutes ago, NuderThanNude said:

I can think of better uses of my tax money. I say... if people want to join and stay in them they deserve what they get. As for packaging the coke... They made me do it isn't an excuse.

...

Better that they be banned all together. 

The Greeks are probably rolling in their grave at them using their alphabet.

[NuderThanNude]

35 minutes ago, Appreciater said:

... The Greeks are probably rolling in their grave at them using their alphabet.

For sure!

[The Jester]

On 8/15/2026 at 3:25 AM, canuck45 said:

Mr Defendant, did he say "yes" to your abuse behavior?
Defendant: Well he was at the hazing so he knew something was going to happen
Answer my question YES or NO, Did he say YES
No he didn't
So you "assumed" he was willing and proceeded without consent.
Yes that is correct.
Judge Dredd: You may now present your closing arguments.
Members of the jury, I ask you find the defendant guilty of sexual assault, by his own admission of NOT having consent from my client and without consent it is assault regardless of any "assumptions".  

Yes. In legal terms they were reckless as to the knowledge they claimed to have.

Where the definition of rape lack of consent, as it is, according to federal definitions, and most jurisdictions in the US, in Canada, in Australia, western Europe, (most of all in Britain,) etc, the mens rea is  lack of reasonable knowledge of consent.

The US military penal code has an emphasis which is slightly different, (on force/threat of force).but Wookie actually mentions a kind of clamp, crushing his penis I believe

The actus raus, guilty act, may actually be penetration of the penis or anus, but the term you used is assault, abuse it: if not rape, then sexual assault.

In the examples given ( assuming they are true and accurate, not exaggerated or fantasised) there are other factors: sexual violence, extreme elements (ritualised degredation, abusive or humiliating language, numbers, and involved, the doors were almost certainly locked, or people may have walked in on these  events, etc) which are aggravating/ make it even more difficult to argue there was reasonable knowledge of consent. 

If those involved were minors, then there are other potential offences I addition, as well as the institutions whose gross failure in safeguarding allowed what occurred.

Conclusion: I agree with canuck, what happened is almost certainly a serious offence. @NuderThanNude, though I agree with many of the views he has, has a confused idea of the law and responsibility here.

 

"Each man is guilty of all the good he did not do"

Voltaire.

 

 

Edited August 20 by The Jester

[The Jester]

On 8/19/2026 at 12:34 AM, NuderThanNude said:

 They made me do it isn't an excuse.

In actual fact it is. It is the defence ("excuse")  of duress in common law.

 

[bc_cpl]

35 minutes ago, The Jester said:

In actual fact it is. It is the defence ("excuse")  of duress in common law.

 

I'm sure this isn't the case everywhere, no?

Edited August 20 by bc_cpl

[The Jester]

21 minutes ago, bc_cpl said:

In the Commonwealth? Not in general, I don't think.

You mean the Commonwealth re, England's former colonies? (Ukraine was supposedly in the Russian Commonwealth🤪)

My understanding is that it is a general idea in law in countries with a constitution/democracies.

It is certainly a defence in the USA and Canada. A different term might be used in different jurisdictions, but its the same thing. Duress or coercion.

If the cartel said you had to smuggle drugs to Montreal, or they'd kill your family they'd kidnapped, that's a defence isn't it 😉

Edited August 20 by The Jester

[The Jester]

@bc_cpl said:"I'm sure that isn't the case everywhere, no?"

 

Germany, 1944

"Die Nazis haben mich gezwunger, diesen armen ins lager zu bringen Euer Ehren!"

Richer:"I have bin ein Nazi".

"Dann bin ich am Arsch !(oder ouch nicht)

😱

Edited August 20 by The Jester

[JasonBeam]

How the hell did the thread move in this direction?

"I was only following orders" isn't duress or coercion

It is not a defense . . . guilty, as charged 

[I Didnt Grow Much]

Much better this direction than the previous one, where certain individuals decided the blame game was the way to go.